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Evidence · Trials

Interim analyses and stopping rules — does this still hold?

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Solved by k.marchand in post #3
This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it. Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term…

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JD
j.delacroixTL3Regular21 Jun 2025#1

Interim analyses and stopping rules — does this still hold? — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked.

Comparing SCALE (N Engl J Med, 2015) with SURMOUNT-4 (JAMA, 2024) and finding the comparison harder than it looks.

Different populations, different durations, different endpoints defined slightly differently, and in one case a different estimand. People compare the headline percentages anyway, including me until recently.

Is there a defensible way to put these side by side, or is the honest answer that there is not and we should stop?

33 likes 13mo
MH
m.haddadTL2Regular22 Jun 2025#2

Worth separating two things that the opening post runs together.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes 13mo
KM
k.marchandTL2 Moderator Solution23 Jun 2025#3

This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

8 likes 13mo
FT
fr.translation_moTL2Translator · FR23 Jun 2025#4

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

7 likes 13mo
HL
h.lindqvistTL2 Moderator24 Jun 2025 · edited#5

post #4 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

25 likes 13mo
AD
appeals_deskTL3Regular24 Jun 2025#6
k.marchand, post #3: This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it. Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are… Go to post

On post #2 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

0 likes in reply to #3 13mo
SA
s.adebayoTL2 Moderator25 Jun 2025#7

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

4 likes 13mo
WP
weekly_pinTL2Regular25 Jun 2025#8

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

11 likes 13mo
FP
f.piresTL2 Moderator26 Jun 2025#9

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

8 likes 13mo
GD
glossary_deskTL3Regular26 Jun 2025#10

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

19 likes 13mo
JV
j.vogelTL227 Jun 2025#11
RI
retention_indexTL2Analytical chemist27 Jun 2025#12
fr.translation_mo, post #4: Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting. Go to post

This follows post #9 rather than contradicting it.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

10 likes in reply to #4 13mo
MA
m.adeyemiTL2 Moderator27 Jun 2025#13

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

3 likes 13mo
GV
g.verhoevenTL2 Moderator28 Jun 2025#14

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes 13mo
Z
ZieglerTL3Regular28 Jun 2025#15
glossary_desk, post #10: Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting. Go to post

Coming back to post #13, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

30 likes in reply to #10 13mo
MD
m.dumitruTL2 Moderator29 Jun 2025#16
s.adebayo, post #7: Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity. Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

15 likes in reply to #7 13mo
DW
diluent_watchTL2Member29 Jun 2025#17

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

6 likes 13mo
ZV
z.vogelTL2 Moderator29 Jun 2025 · edited#18

post #17 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

1 like 13mo
GL
glossary_lineTL1Member30 Jun 2025#19

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

11 likes 13mo
CV
ca.vermeulenTL2 Moderator30 Jun 2025#20

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

3 likes 13mo
MB
ma.balogunTL2 Moderator30 Jun 2025#21

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

0 likes 13mo
D
DOdendaalTL3Regular1 Jul 2025#22

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

1 like 13mo
RI
r.ilungaTL2 Moderator1 Jul 2025#23
ca.vermeulen, post #20: Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit. Go to post

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

10 likes in reply to #20 13mo
ED
e.dalgleishTL3Regular1 Jul 2025#24

Worth separating two things that post #20 runs together.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

23 likes 13mo
DN
d.nilsenTL2 Moderator2 Jul 2025#25

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes 13mo
SC
septum_checkTL1Member2 Jul 2025#26

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

3 likes 13mo
CM
c.marchettiTL2 Moderator2 Jul 2025#27
septum_check, post #26: Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters. Go to post

post #26 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

15 likes in reply to #26 13mo
M
MJayawardenaTL3Regular3 Jul 2025#28
appeals_desk, post #6: On post #2 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive. Go to post

On post #24 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

31 likes in reply to #6 13mo
NS
n.szaboTL2 Moderator3 Jul 2025#29

This follows post #26 rather than contradicting it.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

1 like 13mo
ID
integrator_draftTL3Regular3 Jul 2025#30

I read post #28 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

6 likes 13mo