The Peptide CommonsEst. May 2024
Independent. We sell nothing and are affiliated with no manufacturer or pharmacy. Every moderation action is logged in public
Evidence · Trials

Reading a trial's population section before its results

Solved
Solved by t.abubakar in post #8
Worth separating two things that post #4 runs together. The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but…

Jump to the accepted answer →

W
WickramasingheTL2Member4 May 2026#1

On the subject in the title: Reading a trial's population section before its results Working notes rather than a conclusion.

I have seen STEP 2 (Lancet, 2021) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows.

My reading is that the trial is sound for its own question and is being stretched to answer a different one. I might be wrong about that, which is why this is a topic rather than a correction.

What I would like from this discussion: someone who disagrees with me to say why, with the section of the paper they are relying on.

50 likes 3mo
ZO
z.onwukaTL2 Moderator5 May 2026#2

Coming back to the opening post, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes 3mo
CD
c.dahlbergTL2 Moderator6 May 2026#3
Wickramasinghe, post #1: On the subject in the title: Reading a trial's population section before its results Working notes rather than a conclusion. I have seen STEP 2 ( Lancet , 2021) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows. My reading is that the trial is sound for its… Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

2 likes in reply to #1 3mo
JB
j.baptistaTL2 Moderator7 May 2026 · edited#4

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

8 likes 3mo
VK
v.krastevTL2 Moderator7 May 2026#5

This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

20 likes 3mo
MA
m.achebeTL2 Moderator8 May 2026#6

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

0 likes 3mo
P
PSkarbekTL3Regular8 May 2026#7
c.dahlberg, post #3: Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting. Go to post

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

0 likes in reply to #3 3mo
TA
t.abubakarTL2 Moderator Solution9 May 2026#8

Worth separating two things that post #4 runs together.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

12 likes 3mo
SO
s.ostergaardTL2 Moderator9 May 2026#9

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

14 likes 3mo
BV
bias_varianceTL4Biostatistician10 May 2026#10
j.baptista, post #4: Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

28 likes in reply to #4 3mo
AS
a.salcedoTL3Regular10 May 2026#11

On post #7 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

19 likes 3mo
KH
ka.haddadTL2 Moderator11 May 2026#12

post #11 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

8 likes 3mo
GI
g.ibarraTL2 Moderator11 May 2026 · edited#13
v.krastev, post #5: This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it. Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation. Go to post

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes in reply to #5 3mo
MY
m.yilmazTL2 Moderator12 May 2026#14

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes 3mo
GH
g.haalandTL3Regular12 May 2026#15

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

26 likes 3mo
ID
il.dumitruTL2 Moderator12 May 2026#16
s.ostergaard, post #9: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

post #15 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

12 likes in reply to #9 3mo
FA
f.abrahamsenTL2Member13 May 2026#17
j.baptista, post #4: Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

I read post #15 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

2 likes in reply to #4 3mo
EC
e.coelhoTL2 Moderator13 May 2026#18

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

0 likes 3mo
SK
s.kimaniTL2 Moderator14 May 2026#19

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

8 likes 2mo
EP
e.piresTL2 Moderator14 May 2026#20

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

2 likes 2mo
SC
s.chowdhuryTL3Regular14 May 2026#21

post #20 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

12 likes 2mo
I
IRenaudinTL2Member15 May 2026#22

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

25 likes 2mo
NK
n.kaufmannTL2 Moderator15 May 2026#23

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

0 likes 2mo
AK
a.kwiatkowskiTL2Member15 May 2026 · edited#24
a.salcedo, post #11: On post #7 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at… Go to post

I read post #22 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

1 like in reply to #11 2mo
NB
n.boatengTL2 Moderator16 May 2026#25

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

7 likes 2mo
CR
crossover_reviewTL3Regular16 May 2026#26

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

18 likes 2mo
KB
k.batistaTL2 Moderator17 May 2026#27
s.ostergaard, post #9: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

Picking up post #24: that is the part I would want checked first.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes in reply to #9 2mo
MM
methods_marginTL3Regular17 May 2026#28
g.haaland, post #15: Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters. Go to post

Coming back to post #26, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

0 likes in reply to #15 2mo
RN
r.nakamuraTL2 Moderator17 May 2026#29

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

24 likes 2mo
DT
dexa_twice_yearlyTL3Regular18 May 2026#30

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

0 likes 2mo