Stepping down deliberately, and how to do it without losing progress posts 31–60
This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.
Collapsed as off-topic by two members at trust level 3 or above
Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.
Picking up post #30: that is the part I would want checked first.
Holding a dose indefinitely: the trials did not study indefinite holding at a non-maximum dose. The trials escalated to a target and then held that. What happens if you stay at an intermediate dose for years is not formally studied and extrapolation is the best available reasoning.
Coming back to post #32, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.
The arithmetic of an intermediate dose: if the label says 1.0 mg and 2.0 mg, a dose strictly between them is off-label by definition. Some people compute it anyway. The reasoning is pharmacological — e.g., "I will split the difference between steps" — but it is reasoning from theory, not from evidence.
post #34 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.
I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.
The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.
Reaching a dose and staying there for a year: the question of whether a stable dose remains effective over years is mostly answered by the withdrawal trials and by real-world reports. The dose does not seem to stop working, but the longest trials are not indefinitely long.
Dose equivalence between different incretin analogues is a weak concept. The molecules differ in structure, half-life, receptor selectivity, and in what has been studied clinically. One mg of semaglutide is not equivalent to one mg of something else in any meaningful sense.
I read post #36 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.
Splitting a weekly dose in two: the pharmacokinetic argument against is that you want the benefit of long half-life, which gives a slowly changing plasma level from a weekly dosing schedule. Splitting it flattens the curve further but loses the convenience of once-weekly dosing. The trade-off is convenience versus a slightly flatter concentration curve.
post #38 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.
Titrating on tolerability rather than on the calendar: some people escalate when they tolerate a dose well, others escalate on the prescribed schedule regardless. The published trials used a calendar-based schedule. Tolerability-based escalation has no formal evidence base but is not uncommon in practice.
On post #36 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.
How the published trials escalated: they used specific step sizes and intervals. The STEP programme used a particular cadence; the SURPASS and SURMOUNT programmes used slightly different ones. Reading them side by side shows the variation is real but small.
When a dose reduction is the correct response to a side effect: if a side effect is dose-dependent (nausea, constipation, injection discomfort), reducing the dose is a reasonable response. If the side effect is not dose-dependent (e.g., hypoglycemia with insulin), dose reduction does not address the issue.
Micro-titration: the concept of increments smaller than the labelled steps. It has no evidence base from trials but is described by some people. The downside is that very small increments are hard to measure accurately with a syringe.
The four-week escalation interval is a convention from the pivotal trials, not a pharmacological constant. The pharmacological argument is that with a week-long half-life, four weeks approaches steady state and you can assess the dose fairly. That is an argument for not going faster. It is not an argument against going slower.
Picking up post #41: that is the part I would want checked first.
I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.
The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.
Worth separating two things that post #41 runs together.
The four-week escalation interval is a convention from the pivotal trials, not a pharmacological constant. The pharmacological argument is that with a week-long half-life, four weeks approaches steady state and you can assess the dose fairly. That is an argument for not going faster. It is not an argument against going slower.
Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.
How the published trials escalated: they used specific step sizes and intervals. The STEP programme used a particular cadence; the SURPASS and SURMOUNT programmes used slightly different ones. Reading them side by side shows the variation is real but small.
Reaching a dose and staying there for a year: the question of whether a stable dose remains effective over years is mostly answered by the withdrawal trials and by real-world reports. The dose does not seem to stop working, but the longest trials are not indefinitely long.
I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.
The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.
When a dose reduction is the correct response to a side effect: if a side effect is dose-dependent (nausea, constipation, injection discomfort), reducing the dose is a reasonable response. If the side effect is not dose-dependent (e.g., hypoglycemia with insulin), dose reduction does not address the issue.
Steady state means the plasma concentration is stable from dose to dose. That happens around 4 to 5 half-lives. Before that, the concentration is rising with each dose. Escalating before steady state means escalating on incomplete information about the dose you are on.
post #52 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.
Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.
On post #50 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.
Holding a dose indefinitely: the trials did not study indefinite holding at a non-maximum dose. The trials escalated to a target and then held that. What happens if you stay at an intermediate dose for years is not formally studied and extrapolation is the best available reasoning.
Dose equivalence between different incretin analogues is a weak concept. The molecules differ in structure, half-life, receptor selectivity, and in what has been studied clinically. One mg of semaglutide is not equivalent to one mg of something else in any meaningful sense.
I read post #54 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.
Splitting a weekly dose in two: the pharmacokinetic argument against is that you want the benefit of long half-life, which gives a slowly changing plasma level from a weekly dosing schedule. Splitting it flattens the curve further but loses the convenience of once-weekly dosing. The trade-off is convenience versus a slightly flatter concentration curve.
post #56 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.
Titrating on tolerability rather than on the calendar: some people escalate when they tolerate a dose well, others escalate on the prescribed schedule regardless. The published trials used a calendar-based schedule. Tolerability-based escalation has no formal evidence base but is not uncommon in practice.
Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.
The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.
Stepping down deliberately: the withdrawal trials show that stopping is followed by regain. The step-down literature is thinner. The conservative assumption is that stepping down is followed by some regain, with the magnitude unknown.
The arithmetic of an intermediate dose: if the label says 1.0 mg and 2.0 mg, a dose strictly between them is off-label by definition. Some people compute it anyway. The reasoning is pharmacological — e.g., "I will split the difference between steps" — but it is reasoning from theory, not from evidence.