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Analytics · Mass spectrometry

Charge states for a 4 kDa peptide, worked through

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Solved by r.mensah in post #8
Desalting before analysis: some samples need desalting to remove salts that suppress the peptide signal. Report whether desalting was used, because it can affect the apparent ionization efficiency and the reported purity.

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JP
j.petrovTL2 Moderator28 Feb 2025#1

On the subject in the title: Charge states for a 4 kDa peptide, worked through Working notes rather than a conclusion.

Working through the identity arithmetic and I would like it checked.

retatrutide has a monoisotopic mass close to 4731.3 Da. On an electrospray instrument I would expect to see the multiply charged series rather than the intact singly charged ion, so for the doubly charged species I calculate (4731.3 + 2 x 1.00728) / 2, and for the triply charged the analogous expression.

The observed values in the report sit within a few ppm of those. My question is what that actually establishes, because I have seen people treat a mass match as a purity result and I do not think it is one.

4 likes 17mo
ER
e.roosTL2 Moderator1 Mar 2025#2

Coming back to the opening post, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

8 likes 17mo
BE
bench_entryTL3Regular1 Mar 2025#3

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

19 likes 17mo
BW
b.wikstromTL2 Moderator1 Mar 2025#4

Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak.

0 likes 17mo
BJ
b.jankowiakTL3Regular1 Mar 2025 · edited#5
b.wikstrom, post #4: Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak. Go to post

This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it.

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

0 likes in reply to #4 17mo
PD
p.dialloTL2 Moderator2 Mar 2025#6
j.petrov, post #1: On the subject in the title: Charge states for a 4 kDa peptide, worked through Working notes rather than a conclusion. Working through the identity arithmetic and I would like it checked. retatrutide has a monoisotopic mass close to 4731.3 Da. On an electrospray instrument I would expect to see the multiply charged series rather than… Go to post

I read post #4 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means <5 ppm across the mass range. Unit-resolution instruments achieve ±1 Da at best and cannot distinguish two species differing by less than 1 Da in total mass.

4 likes in reply to #1 17mo
YM
y.mensahTL3Wiki editor2 Mar 2025#7

Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass.

13 likes 17mo
RM
r.mensahTL2 Moderator Solution2 Mar 2025#8

Desalting before analysis: some samples need desalting to remove salts that suppress the peptide signal. Report whether desalting was used, because it can affect the apparent ionization efficiency and the reported purity.

27 likes 17mo
M
MJayawardenaTL3Regular2 Mar 2025#9

Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size.

0 likes 17mo
DN
d.nilsenTL2 Moderator2 Mar 2025#10

What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else.

2 likes 17mo
RM
ra.mensaTL2 Moderator3 Mar 2025#11
p.diallo, post #6: I read post #4 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means Go to post

Sample matrix effects: if a sample is dissolved in a complex matrix, other compounds in the matrix can suppress the peptide signal. Clean samples give higher sensitivity than dirty samples.

0 likes in reply to #6 17mo
CW
cohort_watchTL2Member3 Mar 2025#12
b.wikstrom, post #4: Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak. Go to post

Charge states observed: for semaglutide (4113.6 Da) the doubly charged ion appears at m/z ≈ 2057, triply charged at ≈ 1371, quadruply at ≈ 1029. Those are the positions to look for; the heights depend on the ionization efficiency.

27 likes in reply to #4 17mo
SO
sa.okonkwoTL2 Moderator3 Mar 2025#13

Coming back to post #11, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

8 likes 17mo
JD
j.delacroixTL3Regular3 Mar 2025#14

Picking up post #11: that is the part I would want checked first.

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

2 likes 17mo
AW
am.wikstromTL2 Moderator3 Mar 2025#15
y.mensah, post #7: Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass. Go to post

What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else.

0 likes in reply to #7 17mo
BT
baseline_tableTL2Member3 Mar 2025 · edited#16

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

0 likes 17mo
AC
a.coelhoTL2 Moderator4 Mar 2025#17

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

13 likes 17mo
DM
d.magalhesTL2Member4 Mar 2025#18

This follows post #15 rather than contradicting it.

Charge states observed: for semaglutide (4113.6 Da) the doubly charged ion appears at m/z ≈ 2057, triply charged at ≈ 1371, quadruply at ≈ 1029. Those are the positions to look for; the heights depend on the ionization efficiency.

4 likes 17mo
ME
me.eriksenTL2 Moderator4 Mar 2025#19

On post #15 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

28 likes 17mo
CC
c.correiaTL2 Moderator4 Mar 2025#20
ra.mensa, post #11: Sample matrix effects: if a sample is dissolved in a complex matrix, other compounds in the matrix can suppress the peptide signal. Clean samples give higher sensitivity than dirty samples. Go to post

post #19 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size.

13 likes in reply to #11 17mo
CT
cannula_traceTL3Regular4 Mar 2025#21

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

11 likes 17mo
DB
da.bakkerTL2 Moderator4 Mar 2025#22

Worth separating two things that post #18 runs together.

Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means <5 ppm across the mass range. Unit-resolution instruments achieve ±1 Da at best and cannot distinguish two species differing by less than 1 Da in total mass.

24 likes 17mo
CW
c.wijnbergTL24 Mar 2025#23
PF
p.fontaineTL2 Moderator5 Mar 2025#24
bench_entry, post #3: Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers). Go to post

Desalting before analysis: some samples need desalting to remove salts that suppress the peptide signal. Report whether desalting was used, because it can affect the apparent ionization efficiency and the reported purity.

1 like in reply to #3 17mo
SB
sharps_binTL2Regular5 Mar 2025#25

post #24 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation.

7 likes 17mo
SO
se.okaforTL2 Moderator5 Mar 2025#26

On post #22 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Sample matrix effects: if a sample is dissolved in a complex matrix, other compounds in the matrix can suppress the peptide signal. Clean samples give higher sensitivity than dirty samples.

17 likes 17mo
OF
outline_firstTL3Wiki editor5 Mar 2025#27
se.okafor, post #26: On post #22 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Sample matrix effects: if a sample is dissolved in a complex matrix, other compounds in the matrix can suppress the peptide signal. Clean samples give higher sensitivity than dirty samples. Go to post

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

0 likes in reply to #26 17mo
JR
j.restrepoTL2 Moderator5 Mar 2025#28
p.diallo, post #6: I read post #4 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means Go to post

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

0 likes in reply to #6 17mo
EF
e.ferreiraTL3Regular5 Mar 2025 · edited#29

post #28 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

23 likes 17mo
HF
h.falkTL2 Moderator5 Mar 2025#30

Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak.

0 likes 17mo