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Evidence · Journal club

[2026 update] Journal club: is percentage weight change the right endpoint?

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MSaarinenTL3Regular7 Aug 2025#1

Journal club: is percentage weight change the right endpoint? — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked.

Comparing SURPASS-2 (N Engl J Med, 2021) with SURMOUNT-1 (N Engl J Med, 2022) and finding the comparison harder than it looks.

Different populations, different durations, different endpoints defined slightly differently, and in one case a different estimand. People compare the headline percentages anyway, including me until recently.

Is there a defensible way to put these side by side, or is the honest answer that there is not and we should stop?

45 likes 12mo
LS
l.sarkissianTL2Member8 Aug 2025#2

Worth separating two things that the opening post runs together.

STEP 1 (N Engl J Med 2021): The pivotal obesity trial for semaglutide and the reference point for most subsequent comparison. Mean weight reduction was substantially larger than anything previously achieved pharmacologically.

0 likes 12mo
CN
c.nybergTL2 Moderator8 Aug 2025#3

SURMOUNT-1 (N Engl J Med 2022): Tirzepatide obesity trial. The largest mean weight reduction for a pharmacological intervention at publication. Read the categorical thresholds carefully — they can exaggerate separation.

3 likes 12mo
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h.hutchingsTL1Member8 Aug 2025#4
l.sarkissian, post #2: Worth separating two things that the opening post runs together. STEP 1 (N Engl J Med 2021): The pivotal obesity trial for semaglutide and the reference point for most subsequent comparison. Mean weight reduction was substantially larger than anything previously achieved pharmacologically. Go to post

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

11 likes in reply to #2 12mo
RS
r.sobczakTL2 Moderator8 Aug 2025#5
h.hutchings, post #4: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

post #4 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

PIONEER 6 (N Engl J Med 2019): Cardiovascular safety trial for oral semaglutide, not efficacy. Non-inferiority for safety was met. The trial was not designed to establish benefit, though point estimates favoured the drug.

32 likes in reply to #4 12mo
EA
e.almeidaTL2Member9 Aug 2025#6

TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it.

0 likes 12mo
NR
n.ramosTL2 Moderator9 Aug 2025 · edited#7

Session format: read the paper before posting. The discussion is much better when everyone has. Start with the estimand and population, then methods, then results, then limitations. That order makes critique coherent.

6 likes 12mo
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IHollingworthTL2Member9 Aug 2025#8

Critical appraisal template: (1) What did the trial set out to estimate? (2) Could the design answer that question? (3) Was the population sufficiently similar to your population to apply the results? (4) What was the absolute effect, not just the relative one? (5) What are the two strongest criticisms available?

16 likes 12mo
HB
h.brandtTL2 Moderator9 Aug 2025#9

post #8 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

0 likes 12mo
IS
isotonic_sheetTL3Regular10 Aug 2025#10

FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are.

1 like 12mo
TY
two_year_lineTL3Regular10 Aug 2025 · edited#11

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

3 likes 12mo
CC
c.chowdhuryTL2 Moderator10 Aug 2025#12
h.hutchings, post #4: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

SURPASS-2 (N Engl J Med 2021): Direct comparison of tirzepatide with semaglutide 1.0 mg. The 1.0 mg dose is not the highest available, which is the central and legitimate criticism of the head-to-head evidence.

0 likes in reply to #4 12mo
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batchlogTL3Regular10 Aug 2025#13

Worth separating two things that post #9 runs together.

SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med 2024): Tirzepatide in obstructive sleep apnoea, using an objective physiological endpoint. Notable because soft endpoints are avoided. Two parallel trials addressed the confounder directly.

31 likes 12mo
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d.ferreiraTL211 Aug 2025#14
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bias_varianceTL4Biostatistician11 Aug 2025#15
isotonic_sheet, post #10: FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are. Go to post

SURPASS-2 (N Engl J Med 2021): Direct comparison of tirzepatide with semaglutide 1.0 mg. The 1.0 mg dose is not the highest available, which is the central and legitimate criticism of the head-to-head evidence.

6 likes in reply to #10 12mo
SO
s.ostergaardTL2 Moderator11 Aug 2025#16
n.ramos, post #7: Session format: read the paper before posting. The discussion is much better when everyone has. Start with the estimand and population, then methods, then results, then limitations. That order makes critique coherent. Go to post

Picking up post #13: that is the part I would want checked first.

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

1 like in reply to #7 12mo
IT
impurity_tableTL3Analytical chemist11 Aug 2025#17

SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable.

0 likes 12mo
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i.norgaardTL2 Moderator11 Aug 2025#18

TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it.

22 likes 12mo
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RodriguesTL311 Aug 2025#19
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e.bakkenTL2 Moderator12 Aug 2025#20

SELECT (N Engl J Med 2023): Semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes without diabetes. The first outcome trial in people without diabetes, which decoupled the cardiovascular argument from glucose control. Read the absolute numbers, not just the relative reduction.

3 likes 12mo
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BBramleyTL3Regular12 Aug 2025#21
h.brandt, post #9: post #8 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological. The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this,… Go to post

Session format: read the paper before posting. The discussion is much better when everyone has. Start with the estimand and population, then methods, then results, then limitations. That order makes critique coherent.

0 likes in reply to #9 12mo
TT
t.tullochTL2 Moderator12 Aug 2025#22

Critical appraisal template: (1) What did the trial set out to estimate? (2) Could the design answer that question? (3) Was the population sufficiently similar to your population to apply the results? (4) What was the absolute effect, not just the relative one? (5) What are the two strongest criticisms available?

2 likes 12mo
TN
t.nardoneTL3Regular12 Aug 2025#23

post #22 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are.

13 likes 12mo
CS
c.serranoTL2 Moderator12 Aug 2025#24

Worth separating two things that post #20 runs together.

SURMOUNT-1 (N Engl J Med 2022): Tirzepatide obesity trial. The largest mean weight reduction for a pharmacological intervention at publication. Read the categorical thresholds carefully — they can exaggerate separation.

27 likes 11mo
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HRouhaniTL1Member13 Aug 2025#25
d.ferreira, post #14: SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable. Go to post

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

0 likes in reply to #14 11mo
TV
t.verhoevenTL2 Moderator13 Aug 2025#26

Coming back to post #24, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med 2024): Tirzepatide in obstructive sleep apnoea, using an objective physiological endpoint. Notable because soft endpoints are avoided. Two parallel trials addressed the confounder directly.

5 likes 11mo
VD
vial_deskTL3Regular13 Aug 2025#27

post #26 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

PIONEER 6 (N Engl J Med 2019): Cardiovascular safety trial for oral semaglutide, not efficacy. Non-inferiority for safety was met. The trial was not designed to establish benefit, though point estimates favoured the drug.

19 likes 11mo
EM
e.mensaTL2 Moderator13 Aug 2025#28

TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it.

0 likes 11mo
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HHidalgoTL2Member13 Aug 2025#29

PIONEER 6 (N Engl J Med 2019): Cardiovascular safety trial for oral semaglutide, not efficacy. Non-inferiority for safety was met. The trial was not designed to establish benefit, though point estimates favoured the drug.

29 likes 11mo
SD
st.dialloTL2 Moderator13 Aug 2025#30

I read post #28 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable.

0 likes 11mo