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Analytics · Mass spectrometry

High-resolution MS on aggregates and what it can see — one year on

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Solved by bench_entry in post #3
Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

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NG
np_gilmoreTL3Nurse practitioner8 Aug 2024#1

High-resolution MS on aggregates and what it can see — one year on Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did.

Working through the identity arithmetic and I would like it checked.

retatrutide has a monoisotopic mass close to 4731.3 Da. On an electrospray instrument I would expect to see the multiply charged series rather than the intact singly charged ion, so for the doubly charged species I calculate (4731.3 + 2 x 1.00728) / 2, and for the triply charged the analogous expression.

The observed values in the report sit within a few ppm of those. My question is what that actually establishes, because I have seen people treat a mass match as a purity result and I do not think it is one.

0 likes 2y
ND
n.duarteTL2 Moderator8 Aug 2024#2

the opening post answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size.

32 likes 2y
BE
bench_entryTL3Regular Solution9 Aug 2024#3

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

11 likes 2y
IW
i.wojcikTL2 Moderator9 Aug 2024#4

Charge states observed: for semaglutide (4113.6 Da) the doubly charged ion appears at m/z ≈ 2057, triply charged at ≈ 1371, quadruply at ≈ 1029. Those are the positions to look for; the heights depend on the ionization efficiency.

3 likes 2y
CO
c.okaforTL3Regular9 Aug 2024#5

Worth separating two things that the opening post runs together.

Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means <5 ppm across the mass range. Unit-resolution instruments achieve ±1 Da at best and cannot distinguish two species differing by less than 1 Da in total mass.

1 like 2y
NK
n.kravchenkoTL2 Moderator10 Aug 2024#6

post #5 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

0 likes 2y
CC
crossref_checkTL3Wiki editor10 Aug 2024#7
np_gilmore, post #1: High-resolution MS on aggregates and what it can see — one year on Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. Working through the identity arithmetic and I would like it checked. retatrutide has a monoisotopic mass close to 4731.3 Da. On an electrospray instrument I would expect to see the… Go to post

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

16 likes in reply to #1 2y
KA
k.asanteTL2 Moderator10 Aug 2024#8

Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass.

6 likes 2y
CL
customs_ledgerTL3Regular11 Aug 2024#9
crossref_check, post #7: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

On post #5 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

3 likes in reply to #7 2y
CV
c.vasquezTL2 Moderator11 Aug 2024#10
c.okafor, post #5: Worth separating two things that the opening post runs together. Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means Go to post

Desalting before analysis: some samples need desalting to remove salts that suppress the peptide signal. Report whether desalting was used, because it can affect the apparent ionization efficiency and the reported purity.

0 likes in reply to #5 2y
AP
a.pereiraTL211 Aug 2024#11
FP
forest_plotTL3Evidence synthesis11 Aug 2024#12

Worth separating two things that post #8 runs together.

Sample matrix effects: if a sample is dissolved in a complex matrix, other compounds in the matrix can suppress the peptide signal. Clean samples give higher sensitivity than dirty samples.

6 likes 2y
SA
s.antonsenTL2 Moderator12 Aug 2024#13

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

23 likes 2y
QZ
q.zhao_qaTL3Quality assurance12 Aug 2024#14
s.antonsen, post #13: Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers). Go to post

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

0 likes in reply to #13 2y
CO
c.ostergaardTL2 Moderator12 Aug 2024#15

Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak.

3 likes 2y
MS
m.strand_rphTL3Pharmacist12 Aug 2024 · edited#16

On post #12 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Desalting before analysis: some samples need desalting to remove salts that suppress the peptide signal. Report whether desalting was used, because it can affect the apparent ionization efficiency and the reported purity.

10 likes 23mo
HB
h.bakkerTL2 Moderator13 Aug 2024#17

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

30 likes 23mo
PE
ppm_errorTL3Analytical chemist13 Aug 2024#18
m.strand_rph, post #16: On post #12 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Desalting before analysis: some samples need desalting to remove salts that suppress the peptide signal. Report whether desalting was used, because it can affect the apparent ionization efficiency and the reported purity. Go to post

Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means <5 ppm across the mass range. Unit-resolution instruments achieve ±1 Da at best and cannot distinguish two species differing by less than 1 Da in total mass.

0 likes in reply to #16 23mo
BD
b.dumitruTL2 Moderator13 Aug 2024#19

Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass.

0 likes 23mo
NT
nl_translatorTL2Translator · NL13 Aug 2024#20

Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation.

1 like 23mo
EL
e.lehtinenTL2 Moderator14 Aug 2024#21

On post #17 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

8 likes 23mo
HF
h.ferrariTL2 Moderator14 Aug 2024#22
customs_ledger, post #9: On post #5 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Two things before anyone answers the substance. First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound. Go to post

post #21 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Charge states observed: for semaglutide (4113.6 Da) the doubly charged ion appears at m/z ≈ 2057, triply charged at ≈ 1371, quadruply at ≈ 1029. Those are the positions to look for; the heights depend on the ionization efficiency.

1 like in reply to #9 23mo
KF
k.fonsecaTL2 Moderator14 Aug 2024#23

What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else.

0 likes 23mo
BA
b.aaltoTL2 Moderator14 Aug 2024#24

Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size.

25 likes 23mo
FF
f.fenwickTL315 Aug 2024#25
KK
k.kimaniTL2 Moderator15 Aug 2024#26
s.antonsen, post #13: Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers). Go to post

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

4 likes in reply to #13 23mo
RF
r.friskTL2 Moderator15 Aug 2024 · edited#27

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

0 likes 23mo
LA
l.aguirreTL2 Moderator15 Aug 2024#28

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

0 likes 23mo
MW
m.wanjalaTL1Member16 Aug 2024#29
b.aalto, post #24: Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size. Go to post

Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak.

18 likes in reply to #24 23mo
ON
o.nybergTL2 Moderator16 Aug 2024#30
ppm_error, post #18: Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means Go to post

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

7 likes in reply to #18 23mo