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Compounds · Secretagogues & GH axis

IGF-1 as a surrogate endpoint and its limitations — the long version

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Solved by dexa_twice_yearly in post #7
post #6 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. Pulsatile secretion matters because growth hormone is secreted in pulses, not continuously. A single post-dose growth hormone level is nearly uninterpretable. Assessing this class properly requires serial sampling or an integrated measure…

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NO
n.oseiTL2 Moderator24 Apr 2025#1

On the subject in the title: IGF-1 as a surrogate endpoint and its limitations — the long version Working notes rather than a conclusion.

I have seen STEP 2 (Lancet, 2021) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows.

My reading is that the trial is sound for its own question and is being stretched to answer a different one. I might be wrong about that, which is why this is a topic rather than a correction.

What I would like from this discussion: someone who disagrees with me to say why, with the section of the paper they are relying on.

0 likes 15mo
MG
m.guerreroTL2 Moderator5 May 2025#2

Ipamorelin selectivity claims originate in preclinical characterisation and are reasonably well supported for what they claim: less effect on cortisol and prolactin than earlier GHRPs. Whether that translates to something clinically meaningful is a different question from whether the selectivity is real.

3 likes 15mo
CR
crossover_reviewTL3Regular13 May 2025 · edited#3
n.osei, post #1: On the subject in the title: IGF-1 as a surrogate endpoint and its limitations — the long version Working notes rather than a conclusion. I have seen STEP 2 ( Lancet , 2021) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows. My reading is that the trial is… Go to post

post #2 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

10 likes in reply to #1 15mo
KB
k.batistaTL2 Moderator20 May 2025#4

On the opening post — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

What a well-designed human trial of a secretagogue would look like: randomised, placebo-controlled, adequate sample size, IGF-1 as primary outcome, muscle and strength as secondary outcomes, adequate follow-up duration. Very few secretagogue trials meet that description.

22 likes 14mo
GP
g.pemberton_ukTL3Regional · UK27 May 2025#5

GHRH analogues versus ghrelin mimetics are often conflated but they are different mechanisms. GHRH analogues (like CJC-1295) cause the pituitary to release growth hormone. Ghrelin mimetics (like GHRPs) act on the ghrelin receptor directly. The effect on growth hormone secretion is similar but the mechanisms are distinct.

0 likes 14mo
AV
ai.vukovicTL2 Moderator2 Jun 2025#6

Tesamorelin has an approved indication in HIV-associated lipodystrophy. That is the only compound in this class with a registration-quality evidence base from a proper trial programme. Generalising from that narrow population to healthy adults is a substantial extrapolation.

1 like 14mo
DT
dexa_twice_yearlyTL3Regular Solution8 Jun 2025#7
crossover_review, post #3: post #2 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological. The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this,… Go to post

post #6 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Pulsatile secretion matters because growth hormone is secreted in pulses, not continuously. A single post-dose growth hormone level is nearly uninterpretable. Assessing this class properly requires serial sampling or an integrated measure like IGF-1, and almost nothing published online does either.

6 likes in reply to #3 14mo
RS
r.szaboTL2 Moderator14 Jun 2025#8
g.pemberton_uk, post #5: GHRH analogues versus ghrelin mimetics are often conflated but they are different mechanisms. GHRH analogues (like CJC-1295) cause the pituitary to release growth hormone. Ghrelin mimetics (like GHRPs) act on the ghrelin receptor directly. The effect on growth hormone secretion is similar but the mechanisms are distinct. Go to post

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

16 likes in reply to #5 13mo
I
IMainwaringTL3Regular20 Jun 2025#9

Picking up post #6: that is the part I would want checked first.

Secretagogues and glucose tolerance: there is a mechanistic concern that sustained growth hormone elevation might impair glucose tolerance. The clinical relevance of this concern in practice is not well established.

31 likes 13mo
BA
b.adeyemiTL2 Moderator25 Jun 2025 · edited#10
crossover_review, post #3: post #2 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological. The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this,… Go to post

Coming back to post #8, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

0 likes in reply to #3 13mo
NN
n.nakamuraTL2 Moderator1 Jul 2025#11
m.guerrero, post #2: Ipamorelin selectivity claims originate in preclinical characterisation and are reasonably well supported for what they claim: less effect on cortisol and prolactin than earlier GHRPs. Whether that translates to something clinically meaningful is a different question from whether the selectivity is real. Go to post

IGF-1 as a surrogate: it is a better integrated measure than a spot growth hormone level and it is still a surrogate, with all the caveats that come with surrogates. Stable or rising IGF-1 is not the same as "this is working" in any health-related sense.

11 likes in reply to #2 13mo
CN
c.niemelTL3Regular6 Jul 2025#12
n.nakamura, post #11: IGF-1 as a surrogate: it is a better integrated measure than a spot growth hormone level and it is still a surrogate, with all the caveats that come with surrogates. Stable or rising IGF-1 is not the same as "this is working" in any health-related sense. Go to post

Reading a rodent study on a secretagogue without over-extrapolating: rodent studies can show a mechanism is plausible. They cannot show magnitude of effect in humans or safety profile in humans. That gap is larger for secretagogues than for incretin agonists because the human evidence is thinner.

4 likes in reply to #11 13mo
NV
n.vogelTL2 Moderator11 Jul 2025#13

Why this subcategory is stricter about sourcing than most: the evidence base is weaker and that is precisely why documentation quality matters more. A supplier page that clearly identifies the compound and the purity is more valuable for secretagogues than for incretin agonists where the evidence base is stronger.

0 likes 13mo
OC
o.cousineauTL316 Jul 2025#14
RC
r.chukwuTL2 Moderator21 Jul 2025#15
n.osei, post #1: On the subject in the title: IGF-1 as a surrogate endpoint and its limitations — the long version Working notes rather than a conclusion. I have seen STEP 2 ( Lancet , 2021) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows. My reading is that the trial is… Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #11 runs together.

Development history is more informative than speculation: ipamorelin was investigated clinically for post-operative ileus and was not taken forward to registration. That it was not brought to market tells you something about the cost-benefit calculation that any amount of forum enthusiasm does not.

17 likes in reply to #1 12mo
CD
cohort_driftTL3Regular26 Jul 2025#16

Evidence quality in the secretagogue literature is honestly weaker than in the incretin literature. Large randomised controlled trials are rare. Most evidence is mechanistic or from small studies. This is why this subcategory has higher sourcing standards than most.

7 likes 12mo
ND
n.dziedzicTL2 Moderator31 Jul 2025 · edited#17

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

0 likes 12mo
B
BramleyTL2Member5 Aug 2025#18

Reading a rodent study on a secretagogue without over-extrapolating: rodent studies can show a mechanism is plausible. They cannot show magnitude of effect in humans or safety profile in humans. That gap is larger for secretagogues than for incretin agonists because the human evidence is thinner.

33 likes 12mo
VF
v.fontaineTL2 Moderator10 Aug 2025#19

Ipamorelin selectivity claims originate in preclinical characterisation and are reasonably well supported for what they claim: less effect on cortisol and prolactin than earlier GHRPs. Whether that translates to something clinically meaningful is a different question from whether the selectivity is real.

4 likes 12mo
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