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Evidence · Trials

Non-inferiority margins: how they are chosen and how they are abused — a second dataset

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fr.translation_moTL2Translator · FR30 Dec 2025#1

Non-inferiority margins: how they are chosen and how they are abused — a second dataset — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable.

Comparing FLOW (N Engl J Med, 2024) with SURMOUNT-2 (Lancet, 2023) and finding the comparison harder than it looks.

Different populations, different durations, different endpoints defined slightly differently, and in one case a different estimand. People compare the headline percentages anyway, including me until recently.

Is there a defensible way to put these side by side, or is the honest answer that there is not and we should stop?

0 likes 7mo
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j.ivaturiTL2 Moderator2 Jan 2026#2

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

31 likes 7mo
RH
revision_historyTL3Wiki editor5 Jan 2026#3

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

16 likes 7mo
AA
a.adeyemiTL2 Moderator7 Jan 2026#4

post #3 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

6 likes 7mo
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PSundbergTL2Member9 Jan 2026#5

I read post #3 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes 7mo
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y.eriksenTL2 Moderator11 Jan 2026#6
revision_history, post #3: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

23 likes in reply to #3 7mo
ST
sterile_tableTL3Regular13 Jan 2026#7
fr.translation_mo, post #1: Non-inferiority margins: how they are chosen and how they are abused — a second dataset — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable. Comparing FLOW ( N Engl J Med , 2024) with SURMOUNT-2 ( Lancet , 2023) and finding the comparison harder than it looks. Different populations, different durations, different… Go to post

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

10 likes in reply to #1 6mo
GB
g.bakkenTL2 Moderator15 Jan 2026#8

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

3 likes 6mo
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LeitermanTL316 Jan 2026#9
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a.amankwahTL2 Moderator18 Jan 2026#10

Picking up post #7: that is the part I would want checked first.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

16 likes 6mo
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OstrowskiTL2Member20 Jan 2026#11

Picking up post #8: that is the part I would want checked first.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes 6mo
JS
j.silvaTL2 Moderator21 Jan 2026#12

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

2 likes 6mo
TS
taper_shiftTL3Regular23 Jan 2026#13
revision_history, post #3: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

8 likes in reply to #3 6mo
HN
h.nwosuTL2 Moderator24 Jan 2026#14

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

19 likes 6mo
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FFaulknerTL3Regular26 Jan 2026#15

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

0 likes 6mo
WM
w.moreauTL2 Moderator27 Jan 2026#16

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

0 likes 6mo
LA
l.aaltonenTL3Regular29 Jan 2026#17
PSundberg, post #5: I read post #3 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

4 likes in reply to #5 6mo
SM
so.mbekiTL2 Moderator30 Jan 2026#18
Leiterman, post #9: Coming back to post #7, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #14 runs together.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

13 likes in reply to #9 6mo
BF
b.fonsecaTL2 Moderator31 Jan 2026#19

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

1 like 6mo
AA
a.adebayoTL2 Moderator2 Feb 2026#20

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

7 likes 6mo
MI
m.ilungaTL2 Moderator3 Feb 2026#21

Coming back to post #19, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

0 likes 6mo
RH
revision_historyTL3Wiki editor5 Feb 2026 · edited#22

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes 6mo
EM
e.mbekiTL2 Moderator6 Feb 2026#23
revision_history, post #3: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

13 likes in reply to #3 6mo
GT
g.tanakaTL3Regular7 Feb 2026#24
m.ilunga, post #21: Coming back to post #19, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal… Go to post

post #23 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

5 likes in reply to #21 6mo
SR
s.roosTL2 Moderator9 Feb 2026#25

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

2 likes 6mo
DN
desiccant_notesTL2Member10 Feb 2026#26

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes 6mo
ST
s.teixeiraTL2 Moderator11 Feb 2026#27

Worth separating two things that post #23 runs together.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

19 likes 5mo
MF
m.ferrandTL1Member13 Feb 2026#28
Leiterman, post #9: Coming back to post #7, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

post #27 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

8 likes in reply to #9 5mo
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i.amankwahTL214 Feb 2026#29
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j.vandermolenTL3Regular15 Feb 2026#30
desiccant_notes, post #26: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

Picking up post #27: that is the part I would want checked first.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

20 likes in reply to #26 5mo