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Evidence · Preprints

Why a preprint's supplementary material is often the best part

SC
s.chowdhuryTL3Regular21 Aug 2024#1

Why a preprint's supplementary material is often the best part I have a specific reason for asking rather than idle curiosity, and the context is below.

Session topic: SUSTAIN 6 (N Engl J Med, 2016). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has.

The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than what it found. Once that is on the table we can talk about whether the design could have answered it, and only then about the numbers.

Specific things I would like covered: the population and how far it generalises, how discontinuation was handled, whether the comparator was a fair one, and what the absolute rather than relative effect looks like.

I will summarise at the end and the summary will feed the relevant digest page.

5 likes 23mo
TW
t.waldenstrmTL2Member23 Aug 2024#2

Always label it as a preprint in any discussion. A preprint is not a published trial and it is not settled knowledge. Use it for hypothesis generation and for understanding emerging evidence, not for drawing definitive conclusions.

0 likes 23mo
JS
j.solbergTL2 Moderator25 Aug 2024#3

I read the opening post twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

22 likes 23mo
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MakinenTL2Member26 Aug 2024#4

This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it.

What changes between preprint and publication: authors respond to reviewer comments, re-analyse data, correct errors found in peer review, and sometimes report different results from updated analyses. The published version is not the same as the preprint.

10 likes 23mo
SH
s.hartmannTL2 Moderator28 Aug 2024#5
Makinen, post #4: This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it. What changes between preprint and publication: authors respond to reviewer comments, re-analyse data, correct errors found in peer review, and sometimes report different results from updated analyses. The published version is not the same as the preprint. Go to post

On the opening post — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

How to cite a preprint: author last name, first initial, et al. Title. Server name [preprint]. Posted date. Doi. Include the server name and note that it is a preprint.

1 like in reply to #4 23mo
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LundqvistTL229 Aug 2024#6
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k.kimaniTL2 Moderator30 Aug 2024#7

Unrefereed work is not worthless. A great deal of it survives review substantially unchanged. It is also the case that the version appearing in a journal frequently has different numbers, and the changes are not random — they tend to be in the direction of a smaller effect and a more careful claim.

15 likes 23mo
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KForsbergTL2Member31 Aug 2024 · edited#8

Picking up post #5: that is the part I would want checked first.

Discussing preprints in this community: bring them in for early discussion, label them clearly as preprints, invite peer critique, and be prepared for the discussion to differ if the paper is later published differently.

6 likes 23mo
KC
k.chukwuTL2 Moderator1 Sep 2024#9

Worth separating two things that post #5 runs together.

Server repositories: medRxiv for medicine, bioRxiv for biology. Preprints on these servers are time-stamped and have DOIs even if they are later published elsewhere. Citing the preprint with its DOI is appropriate while noting it is unpublished.

28 likes 23mo
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f.fenwickTL3Regular2 Sep 2024#10

post #9 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Do not build anything on a preprint that you would mind rebuilding: if the preprint later changes substantially in revision or shows different results when published, your reasoning based on the preprint needs to be revised.

14 likes 23mo
AK
a.krastevTL23 Sep 2024#11
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GEldridgeTL3Regular4 Sep 2024#12

Preprints for speed: some important preliminary findings are posted as preprints to disseminate quickly. That speed is useful but comes at the cost of not yet having survived peer review. The trade-off is real.

7 likes 23mo
AV
a.vestergaardTL2 Moderator5 Sep 2024#13

Always label it as a preprint in any discussion. A preprint is not a published trial and it is not settled knowledge. Use it for hypothesis generation and for understanding emerging evidence, not for drawing definitive conclusions.

25 likes 23mo
GD
glossary_deskTL3Regular6 Sep 2024#14

Coming back to post #12, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Check whether it was later published: searching for the preprint's first author and keywords in PubMed might find a published version. The published version is the stronger citation if it exists.

0 likes 23mo
LK
l.krastevTL2 Moderator7 Sep 2024#15
a.krastev, post #11: post #10 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up. Go to post

Discussing preprints in this community: bring them in for early discussion, label them clearly as preprints, invite peer critique, and be prepared for the discussion to differ if the paper is later published differently.

0 likes in reply to #11 23mo
GC
glossary_checkTL2Member8 Sep 2024#16

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

4 likes 23mo
SP
s.perrinTL2 Moderator9 Sep 2024#17

This follows post #14 rather than contradicting it.

Peer review as a filter: published papers have survived a review process that rejects many submissions. Preprints have not. Neither guarantees correctness, but publication history is a difference worth noting.

18 likes 23mo
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s.stavrianosTL2Member10 Sep 2024 · edited#18

I read post #16 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

How to cite a preprint: author last name, first initial, et al. Title. Server name [preprint]. Posted date. Doi. Include the server name and note that it is a preprint.

0 likes 23mo
GD
g.danquahTL2 Moderator10 Sep 2024#19

What changes between preprint and publication: authors respond to reviewer comments, re-analyse data, correct errors found in peer review, and sometimes report different results from updated analyses. The published version is not the same as the preprint.

7 likes 23mo
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BuchholzTL2Member11 Sep 2024 · edited#20

On post #16 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Server repositories: medRxiv for medicine, bioRxiv for biology. Preprints on these servers are time-stamped and have DOIs even if they are later published elsewhere. Citing the preprint with its DOI is appropriate while noting it is unpublished.

17 likes 23mo
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sterile_tableTL3Regular12 Sep 2024#21
glossary_check, post #16: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

Unrefereed work is not worthless. A great deal of it survives review substantially unchanged. It is also the case that the version appearing in a journal frequently has different numbers, and the changes are not random — they tend to be in the direction of a smaller effect and a more careful claim.

3 likes in reply to #16 23mo
SR
sa.rasmussenTL2 Moderator13 Sep 2024 · edited#22

post #21 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Do not build anything on a preprint that you would mind rebuilding: if the preprint later changes substantially in revision or shows different results when published, your reasoning based on the preprint needs to be revised.

0 likes 22mo
FR
figure_reviewTL2Member14 Sep 2024#23

I read post #21 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Preprints for speed: some important preliminary findings are posted as preprints to disseminate quickly. That speed is useful but comes at the cost of not yet having survived peer review. The trade-off is real.

33 likes 22mo
SL
s.lindqvistTL2 Moderator15 Sep 2024#24
s.chowdhury, post #1: Why a preprint's supplementary material is often the best part I have a specific reason for asking rather than idle curiosity, and the context is below. Session topic: SUSTAIN 6 ( N Engl J Med , 2016). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is what the… Go to post

Peer review as a filter: published papers have survived a review process that rejects many submissions. Preprints have not. Neither guarantees correctness, but publication history is a difference worth noting.

17 likes in reply to #1 22mo
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NorringtonTL3Regular15 Sep 2024#25

Preprints for speed: some important preliminary findings are posted as preprints to disseminate quickly. That speed is useful but comes at the cost of not yet having survived peer review. The trade-off is real.

1 like 22mo
JM
j.marchettiTL2 Moderator16 Sep 2024#26

Do not build anything on a preprint that you would mind rebuilding: if the preprint later changes substantially in revision or shows different results when published, your reasoning based on the preprint needs to be revised.

0 likes 22mo
LM
lyophil_marginTL3Regular17 Sep 2024#27

Coming back to post #25, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Server repositories: medRxiv for medicine, bioRxiv for biology. Preprints on these servers are time-stamped and have DOIs even if they are later published elsewhere. Citing the preprint with its DOI is appropriate while noting it is unpublished.

25 likes 22mo
EK
e.kuipersTL2 Moderator18 Sep 2024#28
Norrington, post #25: Preprints for speed: some important preliminary findings are posted as preprints to disseminate quickly. That speed is useful but comes at the cost of not yet having survived peer review. The trade-off is real. Go to post

Picking up post #25: that is the part I would want checked first.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

11 likes in reply to #25 22mo
FN
formulary_notesTL3Regular19 Sep 2024#29

Check whether it was later published: searching for the preprint's first author and keywords in PubMed might find a published version. The published version is the stronger citation if it exists.

0 likes 22mo
RB
r.bruunTL2 Moderator19 Sep 2024#30

Always label it as a preprint in any discussion. A preprint is not a published trial and it is not settled knowledge. Use it for hypothesis generation and for understanding emerging evidence, not for drawing definitive conclusions.

0 likes 22mo