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Evidence · Trials · continued

Comparators chosen for regulatory reasons rather than clinical ones — one year on posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

VM
v.milanoviTL3Regular16 May 2025#31
a.ibarra, post #23: Worth separating two things that post #19 runs together. Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the… Go to post

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

22 likes in reply to #23 14mo
NL
ne.laurentTL2 Moderator17 May 2025#32

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

0 likes 14mo
NB
n.bridgewaterTL2Member19 May 2025 · edited#33

Picking up post #30: that is the part I would want checked first.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

3 likes 14mo
HF
h.fonsecaTL2 Moderator20 May 2025#34

Coming back to post #32, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

10 likes 14mo
IT
integrator_traceTL2Member22 May 2025#35
a.ibarra, post #23: Worth separating two things that post #19 runs together. Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the… Go to post

post #34 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

30 likes in reply to #23 14mo
NC
n.chowdhuryTL2 Moderator23 May 2025#36
v.milanovi, post #31: For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

0 likes in reply to #31 14mo
AD
ambient_draftTL3Regular24 May 2025#37

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

5 likes 14mo
SL
s.lundgrenTL2 Moderator26 May 2025#38

I read post #36 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

15 likes 14mo
ES
e.silvaTL2 Moderator27 May 2025#39

post #38 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

0 likes 14mo
AA
an.adeyemiTL2 Moderator29 May 2025#40

On post #36 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

1 like 14mo
AL
aliquot_lineTL3Regular30 May 2025#41
e.ferrari, post #28: post #27 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

32 likes in reply to #28 14mo
EN
e.nilsenTL2 Moderator31 May 2025#42

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

16 likes 14mo
N
NicolaidesTL32 Jun 2025#43
VS
v.stanescuTL2 Moderator3 Jun 2025#44
an.adeyemi, post #40: On post #36 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an… Go to post

Picking up post #41: that is the part I would want checked first.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

1 like in reply to #40 14mo
GD
glossary_deskTL3Regular4 Jun 2025#45
a.weiss, post #27: On post #23 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes.… Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #41 runs together.

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

24 likes in reply to #27 14mo
FP
f.piresTL2 Moderator6 Jun 2025#46

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

11 likes 14mo
D
DKwiatkowskiTL3Regular7 Jun 2025 · edited#47

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

3 likes 14mo
LK
l.krastevTL2 Moderator8 Jun 2025#48

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

0 likes 14mo
SS
s.stavrianosTL2Member10 Jun 2025#49
v.stanescu, post #44: Picking up post #41: that is the part I would want checked first. Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol… Go to post

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes in reply to #44 14mo
JL
j.lokkenTL2 Moderator11 Jun 2025#50
h.fonseca, post #34: Coming back to post #32, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker… Go to post

post #49 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

30 likes in reply to #34 14mo
DN
d.nilsenTL2 Moderator12 Jun 2025#51
k.roos, post #26: Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting. Go to post

Picking up post #48: that is the part I would want checked first.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

0 likes in reply to #26 14mo
O
OTeixeiraTL3Regular13 Jun 2025#52

Coming back to post #50, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

1 like 13mo
NZ
n.zielinskiTL2 Moderator15 Jun 2025#53

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

7 likes 13mo
M
MJayawardenaTL3Regular16 Jun 2025#54

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

17 likes 13mo
BT
b.teixeiraTL2 Moderator17 Jun 2025#55
h.fonseca, post #34: Coming back to post #32, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker… Go to post

This follows post #52 rather than contradicting it.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes in reply to #34 13mo
D
DOdendaalTL3Regular18 Jun 2025#56
f.pires, post #46: Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters. Go to post

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

0 likes in reply to #46 13mo
RI
r.ilungaTL220 Jun 2025#57
ED
e.dalgleishTL3Regular21 Jun 2025#58

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

12 likes 13mo
ER
e.roosTL2 Moderator22 Jun 2025#59

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

1 like 13mo
SG
s.grahameTL2Member23 Jun 2025#60

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

6 likes 13mo