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Evidence · Trials

Comparators chosen for regulatory reasons rather than clinical ones — one year on

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Solved by m.adeyemi in post #9
Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

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SG
s.grahameTL2Member22 Mar 2025#1

Comparators chosen for regulatory reasons rather than clinical ones — one year on — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable.

Session topic: SURMOUNT-2 (Lancet, 2023). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has.

The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than what it found. Once that is on the table we can talk about whether the design could have answered it, and only then about the numbers.

Specific things I would like covered: the population and how far it generalises, how discontinuation was handled, whether the comparator was a fair one, and what the absolute rather than relative effect looks like.

I will summarise at the end and the summary will feed the relevant digest page.

39 likes 16mo
LI
l.ibarraTL2Regular26 Mar 2025#2

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

9 likes 16mo
AK
a.kirchnerTL2 Moderator28 Mar 2025 · edited#3
s.grahame, post #1: Comparators chosen for regulatory reasons rather than clinical ones — one year on — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable. Session topic: SURMOUNT-2 ( Lancet , 2023). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is what the trial… Go to post

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

2 likes in reply to #1 16mo
AD
appeals_deskTL3Regular31 Mar 2025#4

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes 16mo
YR
y.rahimiTL2 Moderator2 Apr 2025#5

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

28 likes 16mo
P
preregisteredTL3Research methods4 Apr 2025#6
a.kirchner, post #3: Two things before anyone answers the substance. First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound. Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

14 likes in reply to #3 16mo
RP
r.petrovTL2 Moderator6 Apr 2025#7

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

5 likes 16mo
RI
retention_indexTL2Analytical chemist8 Apr 2025#8

post #7 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

0 likes 16mo
MA
m.adeyemiTL2 Moderator Solution10 Apr 2025#9

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

10 likes 16mo
C
chromatogramTL4Analytical chemist12 Apr 2025#10

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

2 likes 16mo
DS
dr_seongTL3Physician14 Apr 2025#11
preregistered, post #6: Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting. Go to post

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

0 likes in reply to #6 15mo
CV
c.vasquezTL2 Moderator16 Apr 2025#12

I read post #10 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

1 like 15mo
OO
orbitrap_olaTL3Mass spectrometrist18 Apr 2025#13

post #12 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

6 likes 15mo
IA
i.almeidaTL2 Moderator19 Apr 2025 · edited#14

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

16 likes 15mo
WN
w.novakTL3Regular21 Apr 2025#15
r.petrov, post #7: Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. Go to post

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

0 likes in reply to #7 15mo
NK
n.kravchenkoTL2 Moderator23 Apr 2025#16

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

3 likes 15mo
CL
customs_ledgerTL3Regular25 Apr 2025#17

post #16 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

10 likes 15mo
PO
p.ostergaardTL2 Moderator26 Apr 2025#18
appeals_desk, post #4: Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation. Go to post

On post #14 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

22 likes in reply to #4 15mo
DF
d.fontaineTL2 Moderator28 Apr 2025#19

This follows post #16 rather than contradicting it.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

23 likes 15mo
FS
f.sjobergTL2 Moderator29 Apr 2025#20

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

0 likes 15mo
KL
k.laurentTL2 Moderator1 May 2025#21
orbitrap_ola, post #13: post #12 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting. Go to post

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

0 likes in reply to #13 15mo
K
KLindqvistTL4 Moderator3 May 2025#22

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

32 likes 15mo
AI
a.ibarraTL2 Moderator4 May 2025#23

Worth separating two things that post #19 runs together.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

11 likes 15mo
NL
n.lehtinenTL2 Moderator6 May 2025#24
a.ibarra, post #23: Worth separating two things that post #19 runs together. Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the… Go to post

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

3 likes in reply to #23 15mo
LD
l.dziedzicTL2 Moderator7 May 2025#25

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

0 likes 15mo
KR
k.roosTL2 Moderator9 May 2025#26

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

24 likes 15mo
AW
a.weissTL2 Moderator10 May 2025#27

On post #23 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

7 likes 15mo
EF
e.ferrariTL2 Moderator12 May 2025#28
n.lehtinen, post #24: Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation. Go to post

post #27 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

1 like in reply to #24 15mo
AI
a.ilungaTL2 Moderator13 May 2025#29
c.vasquez, post #12: I read post #10 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than… Go to post

I read post #27 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

0 likes in reply to #12 15mo
CL
coldchain_liuTL3Regular15 May 2025#30

This follows post #27 rather than contradicting it.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

17 likes 14mo