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Research Methods · Statistics

Regression to the mean in progress reports

HA
h.almeidaTL2Member10 Apr 2025#1

On the subject in the title: Regression to the mean in progress reports Working notes rather than a conclusion.

Session topic: PIONEER 6 (N Engl J Med, 2019). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has.

The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than what it found. Once that is on the table we can talk about whether the design could have answered it, and only then about the numbers.

Specific things I would like covered: the population and how far it generalises, how discontinuation was handled, whether the comparator was a fair one, and what the absolute rather than relative effect looks like.

I will summarise at the end and the summary will feed the relevant digest page.

58 likes 16mo
AM
a.molnarTL2 Moderator17 Apr 2025#2

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

0 likes 15mo
TF
taper_fileTL3Regular21 Apr 2025#3

Confounding: a third variable explains an apparent association. In randomised data, randomisation balances confounders. In observational data, confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

3 likes 15mo
AV
a.villalobosTL2 Moderator25 Apr 2025#4
h.almeida, post #1: On the subject in the title: Regression to the mean in progress reports Working notes rather than a conclusion. Session topic: PIONEER 6 ( N Engl J Med , 2019). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than… Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #2 runs together.

Regression to the mean: if you select people with extreme values (very high or very low), their next measurement is often less extreme just by chance. This can look like a treatment effect when it is just statistics.

11 likes in reply to #1 15mo
DM
d.magalhesTL2Member29 Apr 2025#5

Picking up post #2: that is the part I would want checked first.

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

0 likes 15mo
AC
a.coelhoTL2 Moderator3 May 2025#6

Coming back to post #4, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Effect sizes: the magnitude of a difference, not just whether it is statistically significant. A difference that is significant (p<0.05) might be too small to matter. A large effect might not be significant if sample size is small.

1 like 15mo
BT
baseline_tableTL2Member6 May 2025#7

Confidence intervals: rather than a single point estimate, a range of plausible values. A narrow interval means precise measurement; a wide interval means measurement is imprecise. Wider intervals (more uncertainty) are honest about limitation.

6 likes 15mo
TB
t.brandtTL2 Moderator10 May 2025#8
h.almeida, post #1: On the subject in the title: Regression to the mean in progress reports Working notes rather than a conclusion. Session topic: PIONEER 6 ( N Engl J Med , 2019). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than… Go to post

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if you test many hypotheses, the chance of finding a false positive by random chance increases. That is why pre-specifying the primary hypothesis matters.

16 likes in reply to #1 15mo
N
NicolaidesTL3Regular13 May 2025#9

P-values and significance: p<0.05 means the data would be surprising if the null hypothesis were true, not that the null hypothesis is false. A non-significant p-value does not mean "no effect".

0 likes 15mo
FP
f.piresTL2 Moderator16 May 2025#10

I read post #8 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Absence of evidence and evidence of absence: if a study is small and finds no effect, that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence. A larger study might find an effect that a small study missed.

3 likes 14mo
AF
a.finnegan_rdTL219 May 2025#11
VK
v.kirchnerTL2 Moderator22 May 2025 · edited#12
Nicolaides, post #9: P-values and significance: p Go to post

post #11 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Relative risk and odds ratios: both compare the rate in one group to the rate in another. Relative risk is easier to understand. Odds ratios are standard in many analyses but can be misinterpreted.

2 likes in reply to #9 14mo
CL
coldchain_liuTL3Regular25 May 2025#13
a.coelho, post #6: Coming back to post #4, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Effect sizes: the magnitude of a difference, not just whether it is statistically significant. A difference that is significant (p Go to post

I read post #11 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Power and sample size: a study might be too small to detect a real effect (low power). Sample size calculations help determine how many participants are needed to detect an effect of a given magnitude.

0 likes in reply to #6 14mo
MN
m.nascimentoTL2 Moderator28 May 2025#14

Number needed to treat: how many people need to be treated to prevent one bad outcome or achieve one good outcome. More intuitive than relative risk reduction.

22 likes 14mo
LE
logbook_erinTL3Regular31 May 2025#15

On post #11 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Effect sizes: the magnitude of a difference, not just whether it is statistically significant. A difference that is significant (p<0.05) might be too small to matter. A large effect might not be significant if sample size is small.

6 likes 14mo
AI
a.ilungaTL2 Moderator3 Jun 2025#16

post #15 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

1 like 14mo
CO
c.okaforTL3Regular5 Jun 2025#17
Nicolaides, post #9: P-values and significance: p Go to post

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if you test many hypotheses, the chance of finding a false positive by random chance increases. That is why pre-specifying the primary hypothesis matters.

30 likes in reply to #9 14mo
SG
s.girardTL2 Moderator8 Jun 2025#18

Confidence intervals: rather than a single point estimate, a range of plausible values. A narrow interval means precise measurement; a wide interval means measurement is imprecise. Wider intervals (more uncertainty) are honest about limitation.

15 likes 14mo
CC
crossref_checkTL3Wiki editor11 Jun 2025#19
t.brandt, post #8: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if you test many hypotheses, the chance of finding a false positive by random chance increases. That is why pre-specifying the primary hypothesis matters. Go to post

P-values and significance: p<0.05 means the data would be surprising if the null hypothesis were true, not that the null hypothesis is false. A non-significant p-value does not mean "no effect".

21 likes in reply to #8 14mo
FD
f.danquahTL2 Moderator13 Jun 2025#20
a.finnegan_rd, post #11: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

Absence of evidence and evidence of absence: if a study is small and finds no effect, that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence. A larger study might find an effect that a small study missed.

9 likes in reply to #11 13mo
GH
g.haalandTL3Regular16 Jun 2025 · edited#21

post #20 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Relative risk and odds ratios: both compare the rate in one group to the rate in another. Relative risk is easier to understand. Odds ratios are standard in many analyses but can be misinterpreted.

5 likes 13mo
SB
s.beaulieuTL2 Moderator19 Jun 2025#22

On post #18 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Confounding: a third variable explains an apparent association. In randomised data, randomisation balances confounders. In observational data, confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

14 likes 13mo
FA
f.abrahamsenTL2Member21 Jun 2025#23

Regression to the mean: if you select people with extreme values (very high or very low), their next measurement is often less extreme just by chance. This can look like a treatment effect when it is just statistics.

28 likes 13mo
KH
ka.haddadTL2 Moderator24 Jun 2025#24
f.danquah, post #20: Absence of evidence and evidence of absence: if a study is small and finds no effect, that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence. A larger study might find an effect that a small study missed. Go to post

Power and sample size: a study might be too small to detect a real effect (low power). Sample size calculations help determine how many participants are needed to detect an effect of a given magnitude.

0 likes in reply to #20 13mo
AS
a.salcedoTL326 Jun 2025#25
MY
m.yilmazTL2 Moderator29 Jun 2025#26

Worth separating two things that post #22 runs together.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

20 likes 13mo
SD
s.duarteTL2 Moderator1 Jul 2025#27

Confidence intervals: rather than a single point estimate, a range of plausible values. A narrow interval means precise measurement; a wide interval means measurement is imprecise. Wider intervals (more uncertainty) are honest about limitation.

0 likes 13mo
VB
v.bhattacharyaTL2 Moderator4 Jul 2025#28
f.danquah, post #20: Absence of evidence and evidence of absence: if a study is small and finds no effect, that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence. A larger study might find an effect that a small study missed. Go to post

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if you test many hypotheses, the chance of finding a false positive by random chance increases. That is why pre-specifying the primary hypothesis matters.

0 likes in reply to #20 13mo
EM
endpoint_marginTL2Member6 Jul 2025#29

Confounding: a third variable explains an apparent association. In randomised data, randomisation balances confounders. In observational data, confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

13 likes 13mo
NZ
n.zielinskiTL2 Moderator8 Jul 2025#30

Regression to the mean: if you select people with extreme values (very high or very low), their next measurement is often less extreme just by chance. This can look like a treatment effect when it is just statistics.

27 likes 13mo