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Evidence · Study critique

Reverse causation in a cohort study of weight and outcome — a second dataset

MR
m.ramosTL2 Moderator11 Sep 2025#1

Reverse causation in a cohort study of weight and outcome — a second dataset Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did.

Session topic: SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med, 2024). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has.

The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than what it found. Once that is on the table we can talk about whether the design could have answered it, and only then about the numbers.

Specific things I would like covered: the population and how far it generalises, how discontinuation was handled, whether the comparator was a fair one, and what the absolute rather than relative effect looks like.

I will summarise at the end and the summary will feed the relevant digest page.

0 likes 11mo
AK
a.kowalczykTL2Regular11 Sep 2025#2

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

18 likes 10mo
AN
a.nascimentoTL2 Moderator12 Sep 2025 · edited#3

Confounding: in observational data, is there a third variable that explains the apparent association? In randomised data, randomisation should balance unknown confounders, though known confounders can be adjusted for.

4 likes 10mo
KB
k.brandl_deTL3Translator · DE12 Sep 2025#4
a.nascimento, post #3: Confounding: in observational data, is there a third variable that explains the apparent association? In randomised data, randomisation should balance unknown confounders, though known confounders can be adjusted for. Go to post

This follows post #3 rather than contradicting it.

Bias towards the null and bias away from the null: different criticisms have different directions. Differential dropout might bias away from null; conservative statistical analysis might bias toward null.

0 likes in reply to #3 10mo
VK
v.kjaerTL212 Sep 2025#5
DB
d.bramleyTL3Regular12 Sep 2025#6

post #5 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Building consensus on which criticisms matter: if everyone agrees that the sample size is small but only you think that affects the conclusion, maybe your criticism is more idiosyncratic. That does not make it wrong but it is worth noticing.

12 likes 10mo
HJ
h.jansenTL2 Moderator12 Sep 2025 · edited#7
a.kowalczyk, post #2: Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up. Go to post

Choosing the worst interpretation: "The confidence interval includes a harmful effect" is true if the CI goes from -1 to +5. But assuming the worst-case scenario is not how you use the evidence. The point estimate and the precision both matter.

2 likes in reply to #2 10mo
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GEldridgeTL3Regular12 Sep 2025#8
m.ramos, post #1: Reverse causation in a cohort study of weight and outcome — a second dataset Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. Session topic: SURMOUNT-OSA ( N Engl J Med , 2024). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is… Go to post

When you change your mind: if a reply convinces you that your criticism was not well-founded, say so plainly. The critique might still be real but smaller than you originally thought. That is not a failure — it is how discussion works.

0 likes in reply to #1 10mo
AP
a.pereiraTL2 Moderator12 Sep 2025#9

Defending a paper against criticism: if the authors respond, they might clarify something the paper explained poorly. Their response might also miss your point. Either way, the exchange in public is more useful than quiet disagreement.

19 likes 10mo
PE
ppm_errorTL3Analytical chemist12 Sep 2025#10

Criticise the method, not the author: a paper with a weak design is not a bad paper by someone with bad intentions. It is a paper that answers a limited question. Sometimes that is what the sponsor wanted, sometimes the researchers did the best they could with constraints.

8 likes 10mo
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IMainwaringTL3Regular12 Sep 2025#11
a.pereira, post #9: Defending a paper against criticism: if the authors respond, they might clarify something the paper explained poorly. Their response might also miss your point. Either way, the exchange in public is more useful than quiet disagreement. Go to post

post #10 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

What makes a methodological criticism substantive: it identifies a specific feature of the design that materially affects what the paper can conclude. "Small sample size" alone is weak. "Small sample size for a rare outcome, so the confidence interval is wide" is stronger.

0 likes in reply to #9 10mo
BA
b.adeyemiTL2 Moderator12 Sep 2025#12
a.kowalczyk, post #2: Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up. Go to post

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

0 likes in reply to #2 10mo
LA
l.aaltonenTL3Regular12 Sep 2025#13

Generalisability: do the inclusion/exclusion criteria narrow the population so much that results do not apply to real people asking about it? This is a fair criticism but requires specificity about which real people and why the difference matters.

9 likes 10mo
SM
so.mbekiTL2 Moderator12 Sep 2025#14

Coming back to post #12, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Publication bias: a single published positive trial is weaker evidence than multiple published trials with consistent results. Asking whether there are unpublished negative trials is a fair critical question.

20 likes 10mo
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FFaulknerTL3Regular12 Sep 2025 · edited#15

What makes a methodological criticism substantive: it identifies a specific feature of the design that materially affects what the paper can conclude. "Small sample size" alone is weak. "Small sample size for a rare outcome, so the confidence interval is wide" is stronger.

29 likes 10mo
WM
w.moreauTL2 Moderator12 Sep 2025#16
k.brandl_de, post #4: This follows post #3 rather than contradicting it. Bias towards the null and bias away from the null: different criticisms have different directions. Differential dropout might bias away from null; conservative statistical analysis might bias toward null. Go to post

Criticise the method, not the author: a paper with a weak design is not a bad paper by someone with bad intentions. It is a paper that answers a limited question. Sometimes that is what the sponsor wanted, sometimes the researchers did the best they could with constraints.

0 likes in reply to #4 10mo
TS
taper_shiftTL3Regular12 Sep 2025#17

This follows post #14 rather than contradicting it.

Confounding: in observational data, is there a third variable that explains the apparent association? In randomised data, randomisation should balance unknown confounders, though known confounders can be adjusted for.

5 likes 10mo
HN
h.nwosuTL2 Moderator12 Sep 2025#18

I read post #16 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Generalisability: do the inclusion/exclusion criteria narrow the population so much that results do not apply to real people asking about it? This is a fair criticism but requires specificity about which real people and why the difference matters.

14 likes 10mo
CP
citation_peakTL3Regular12 Sep 2025#19

Multiple comparisons: if a paper reports many outcomes, the chance of a spurious association by random chance is real. Pre-specification of primary outcomes matters and secondary analyses are weaker evidence.

21 likes 10mo
MN
ma.nascimentoTL2 Moderator12 Sep 2025#20
h.nwosu, post #18: I read post #16 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Generalisability: do the inclusion/exclusion criteria narrow the population so much that results do not apply to real people asking about it? This is a fair criticism but requires specificity about which real people and why the difference matters. Go to post

Bias towards the null and bias away from the null: different criticisms have different directions. Differential dropout might bias away from null; conservative statistical analysis might bias toward null.

0 likes in reply to #18 10mo
DN
d.ndiayeTL2 Moderator13 Sep 2025#21

Worth separating two things that post #17 runs together.

Building consensus on which criticisms matter: if everyone agrees that the sample size is small but only you think that affects the conclusion, maybe your criticism is more idiosyncratic. That does not make it wrong but it is worth noticing.

1 like 10mo
LA
l.aaltonenTL3Regular13 Sep 2025#22
taper_shift, post #17: This follows post #14 rather than contradicting it. Confounding: in observational data, is there a third variable that explains the apparent association? In randomised data, randomisation should balance unknown confounders, though known confounders can be adjusted for. Go to post

post #21 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Publication bias: a single published positive trial is weaker evidence than multiple published trials with consistent results. Asking whether there are unpublished negative trials is a fair critical question.

0 likes in reply to #17 10mo
MD
m.dumitruTL2 Moderator13 Sep 2025#23

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

23 likes 10mo
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WickramasingheTL2Member13 Sep 2025#24

Choosing the worst interpretation: "The confidence interval includes a harmful effect" is true if the CI goes from -1 to +5. But assuming the worst-case scenario is not how you use the evidence. The point estimate and the precision both matter.

10 likes 10mo
BJ
b.jansenTL213 Sep 2025#25
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ZieglerTL3Regular13 Sep 2025#26
h.nwosu, post #18: I read post #16 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Generalisability: do the inclusion/exclusion criteria narrow the population so much that results do not apply to real people asking about it? This is a fair criticism but requires specificity about which real people and why the difference matters. Go to post

post #25 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

32 likes in reply to #18 10mo
BN
b.nwosuTL2 Moderator13 Sep 2025#27

Coming back to post #25, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Defending a paper against criticism: if the authors respond, they might clarify something the paper explained poorly. Their response might also miss your point. Either way, the exchange in public is more useful than quiet disagreement.

16 likes 10mo
BP
baseline_peakTL2Member13 Sep 2025#28

Publication bias: a single published positive trial is weaker evidence than multiple published trials with consistent results. Asking whether there are unpublished negative trials is a fair critical question.

6 likes 10mo
NN
n.norgaardTL2 Moderator13 Sep 2025#29

Generalisability: do the inclusion/exclusion criteria narrow the population so much that results do not apply to real people asking about it? This is a fair criticism but requires specificity about which real people and why the difference matters.

6 likes 10mo
MS
m.stephanopoulosTL3Regular13 Sep 2025#30
taper_shift, post #17: This follows post #14 rather than contradicting it. Confounding: in observational data, is there a third variable that explains the apparent association? In randomised data, randomisation should balance unknown confounders, though known confounders can be adjusted for. Go to post

Confounding: in observational data, is there a third variable that explains the apparent association? In randomised data, randomisation should balance unknown confounders, though known confounders can be adjusted for.

1 like in reply to #17 10mo