For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.
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Practice · Dosing & titration · continued
Why "dose equivalence" between different incretin analogues is a weak concept posts 31–60
This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.
The four-week escalation interval is a convention from the pivotal trials, not a pharmacological constant. The pharmacological argument is that with a week-long half-life, four weeks approaches steady state and you can assess the dose fairly. That is an argument for not going faster. It is not an argument against going slower.
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k.laurent, post #15: Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up. Go to post
Micro-titration: the concept of increments smaller than the labelled steps. It has no evidence base from trials but is described by some people. The downside is that very small increments are hard to measure accurately with a syringe.
Collapsed as off-topic by two members at trust level 3 or above
On post #30 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.
The four-week escalation interval is a convention from the pivotal trials, not a pharmacological constant. The pharmacological argument is that with a week-long half-life, four weeks approaches steady state and you can assess the dose fairly. That is an argument for not going faster. It is not an argument against going slower.
This follows post #32 rather than contradicting it.
Steady state means the plasma concentration is stable from dose to dose. That happens around 4 to 5 half-lives. Before that, the concentration is rising with each dose. Escalating before steady state means escalating on incomplete information about the dose you are on.
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Holding a dose indefinitely: the trials did not study indefinite holding at a non-maximum dose. The trials escalated to a target and then held that. What happens if you stay at an intermediate dose for years is not formally studied and extrapolation is the best available reasoning.
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m.nascimento, post #13: This follows post #10 rather than contradicting it. When a dose reduction is the correct response to a side effect: if a side effect is dose-dependent (nausea, constipation, injection discomfort), reducing the dose is a reasonable response. If the side effect is not dose-dependent (e.g., hypoglycemia with insulin), dose reduction does… Go to post
Stepping down deliberately: the withdrawal trials show that stopping is followed by regain. The step-down literature is thinner. The conservative assumption is that stepping down is followed by some regain, with the magnitude unknown.
i.amankwah, post #22: For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post
The arithmetic of an intermediate dose: if the label says 1.0 mg and 2.0 mg, a dose strictly between them is off-label by definition. Some people compute it anyway. The reasoning is pharmacological — e.g., "I will split the difference between steps" — but it is reasoning from theory, not from evidence.
Picking up post #36: that is the part I would want checked first.
Dose equivalence between different incretin analogues is a weak concept. The molecules differ in structure, half-life, receptor selectivity, and in what has been studied clinically. One mg of semaglutide is not equivalent to one mg of something else in any meaningful sense.
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batchlog, post #36: Holding a dose indefinitely: the trials did not study indefinite holding at a non-maximum dose. The trials escalated to a target and then held that. What happens if you stay at an intermediate dose for years is not formally studied and extrapolation is the best available reasoning. Go to post
Coming back to post #38, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.
Splitting a weekly dose in two: the pharmacokinetic argument against is that you want the benefit of long half-life, which gives a slowly changing plasma level from a weekly dosing schedule. Splitting it flattens the curve further but loses the convenience of once-weekly dosing. The trade-off is convenience versus a slightly flatter concentration curve.
c.serrano, post #24: Picking up post #21: that is the part I would want checked first. Steady state means the plasma concentration is stable from dose to dose. That happens around 4 to 5 half-lives. Before that, the concentration is rising with each dose. Escalating before steady state means escalating on incomplete information about the dose you are on. Go to post
Titrating on tolerability rather than on the calendar: some people escalate when they tolerate a dose well, others escalate on the prescribed schedule regardless. The published trials used a calendar-based schedule. Tolerability-based escalation has no formal evidence base but is not uncommon in practice.
s.karlsen_rph, post #16: The four-week escalation interval is a convention from the pivotal trials, not a pharmacological constant. The pharmacological argument is that with a week-long half-life, four weeks approaches steady state and you can assess the dose fairly. That is an argument for not going faster. It is not an argument against going slower. Go to post
Worth separating two things that post #39 runs together.
Reaching a dose and staying there for a year: the question of whether a stable dose remains effective over years is mostly answered by the withdrawal trials and by real-world reports. The dose does not seem to stop working, but the longest trials are not indefinitely long.
How the published trials escalated: they used specific step sizes and intervals. The STEP programme used a particular cadence; the SURPASS and SURMOUNT programmes used slightly different ones. Reading them side by side shows the variation is real but small.
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When a dose reduction is the correct response to a side effect: if a side effect is dose-dependent (nausea, constipation, injection discomfort), reducing the dose is a reasonable response. If the side effect is not dose-dependent (e.g., hypoglycemia with insulin), dose reduction does not address the issue.
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i.norgaard, post #31: For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post
Picking up post #43: that is the part I would want checked first.
For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.
The four-week escalation interval is a convention from the pivotal trials, not a pharmacological constant. The pharmacological argument is that with a week-long half-life, four weeks approaches steady state and you can assess the dose fairly. That is an argument for not going faster. It is not an argument against going slower.
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Micro-titration: the concept of increments smaller than the labelled steps. It has no evidence base from trials but is described by some people. The downside is that very small increments are hard to measure accurately with a syringe.
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I read post #47 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.
Holding a dose indefinitely: the trials did not study indefinite holding at a non-maximum dose. The trials escalated to a target and then held that. What happens if you stay at an intermediate dose for years is not formally studied and extrapolation is the best available reasoning.
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Steady state means the plasma concentration is stable from dose to dose. That happens around 4 to 5 half-lives. Before that, the concentration is rising with each dose. Escalating before steady state means escalating on incomplete information about the dose you are on.
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Two things before anyone answers the substance.
First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.
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n.lehtinen, post #20: Worth separating two things that post #16 runs together. The arithmetic of an intermediate dose: if the label says 1.0 mg and 2.0 mg, a dose strictly between them is off-label by definition. Some people compute it anyway. The reasoning is pharmacological — e.g., "I will split the difference between steps" — but it is reasoning from… Go to post
Picking up post #50: that is the part I would want checked first.
How the published trials escalated: they used specific step sizes and intervals. The STEP programme used a particular cadence; the SURPASS and SURMOUNT programmes used slightly different ones. Reading them side by side shows the variation is real but small.
j.petrov, post #33: Micro-titration: the concept of increments smaller than the labelled steps. It has no evidence base from trials but is described by some people. The downside is that very small increments are hard to measure accurately with a syringe. Go to post
Coming back to post #52, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.
When a dose reduction is the correct response to a side effect: if a side effect is dose-dependent (nausea, constipation, injection discomfort), reducing the dose is a reasonable response. If the side effect is not dose-dependent (e.g., hypoglycemia with insulin), dose reduction does not address the issue.
Titrating on tolerability rather than on the calendar: some people escalate when they tolerate a dose well, others escalate on the prescribed schedule regardless. The published trials used a calendar-based schedule. Tolerability-based escalation has no formal evidence base but is not uncommon in practice.
11 likes 5mo
Reaching a dose and staying there for a year: the question of whether a stable dose remains effective over years is mostly answered by the withdrawal trials and by real-world reports. The dose does not seem to stop working, but the longest trials are not indefinitely long.
24 likes 5mo
This follows post #54 rather than contradicting it.
Dose equivalence between different incretin analogues is a weak concept. The molecules differ in structure, half-life, receptor selectivity, and in what has been studied clinically. One mg of semaglutide is not equivalent to one mg of something else in any meaningful sense.
0 likes 5mo
r.weiss, post #41: Two things before anyone answers the substance. First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound. Go to post
Splitting a weekly dose in two: the pharmacokinetic argument against is that you want the benefit of long half-life, which gives a slowly changing plasma level from a weekly dosing schedule. Splitting it flattens the curve further but loses the convenience of once-weekly dosing. The trade-off is convenience versus a slightly flatter concentration curve.
post #58 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.
The arithmetic of an intermediate dose: if the label says 1.0 mg and 2.0 mg, a dose strictly between them is off-label by definition. Some people compute it anyway. The reasoning is pharmacological — e.g., "I will split the difference between steps" — but it is reasoning from theory, not from evidence.
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dr_seong, post #56: Reaching a dose and staying there for a year: the question of whether a stable dose remains effective over years is mostly answered by the withdrawal trials and by real-world reports. The dose does not seem to stop working, but the longest trials are not indefinitely long. Go to post
On post #56 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.
The arithmetic of an intermediate dose: if the label says 1.0 mg and 2.0 mg, a dose strictly between them is off-label by definition. Some people compute it anyway. The reasoning is pharmacological — e.g., "I will split the difference between steps" — but it is reasoning from theory, not from evidence.