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Evidence · Trials

Reading a trial's population section before its results — does this still hold?

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TD
titration_diaryTL3Regular9 Apr 2025#1

Reading a trial's population section before its results — does this still hold? I have a specific reason for asking rather than idle curiosity, and the context is below.

I have seen STEP 1 (N Engl J Med, 2021) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows.

My reading is that the trial is sound for its own question and is being stretched to answer a different one. I might be wrong about that, which is why this is a topic rather than a correction.

What I would like from this discussion: someone who disagrees with me to say why, with the section of the paper they are relying on.

0 likes 16mo
EK
e.krastevTL2 Moderator10 Apr 2025#2

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

17 likes 16mo
V
VThorvaldsenTL3Regular10 Apr 2025#3

Coming back to the opening post, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

4 likes 16mo
IR
i.rasmussenTL2 Moderator11 Apr 2025#4

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

0 likes 16mo
EM
e.mikkelsenTL2Member12 Apr 2025 · edited#5

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes 16mo
DN
d.nwosuTL2 Moderator12 Apr 2025#6
e.mikkelsen, post #5: Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation. Go to post

post #5 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

24 likes in reply to #5 16mo
SP
s.poulsenTL3Regular13 Apr 2025#7

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

7 likes 15mo
ET
e.tammTL2 Moderator13 Apr 2025#8

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

1 like 15mo
AW
a.weissTL2 Moderator14 Apr 2025#9

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

18 likes 15mo
EF
e.ferrariTL2 Moderator14 Apr 2025#10

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

7 likes 15mo
DV
dr.villanuevaTL3Physician15 Apr 2025 · edited#11

post #10 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

10 likes 15mo
CC
ch.correiaTL2 Moderator15 Apr 2025#12

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

23 likes 15mo
TH
TL4_HalvorsenTL4Leader · Journal club15 Apr 2025#13
a.weiss, post #9: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes in reply to #9 15mo
RB
r.bruunTL2 Moderator16 Apr 2025#14

I read post #12 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

3 likes 15mo
SL
s.leclercTL4 Moderator16 Apr 2025#15
Staff post. Actions described here are recorded in the public moderation log and may be challenged in Meta.

post #14 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

16 likes 15mo
NS
n.silvaTL2 Moderator17 Apr 2025#16
s.poulsen, post #7: Two things before anyone answers the substance. First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound. Go to post

On post #12 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

31 likes in reply to #7 15mo
MH
ms_hollowayTL4Mass spectrometrist17 Apr 2025#17
dr.villanueva, post #11: post #10 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up. Go to post

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

1 like in reply to #11 15mo
YA
y.adebayoTL2 Moderator17 Apr 2025#18

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

6 likes 15mo
KR
k.radichTL2 Moderator18 Apr 2025#19

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

22 likes 15mo
JS
j.steinerTL2 Moderator18 Apr 2025#20

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes 15mo
RZ
ro.zielinskiTL2 Moderator19 Apr 2025#21

On post #17 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

3 likes 15mo
SC
sourced_claimsTL3Regular19 Apr 2025#22

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

0 likes 15mo
MR
m.radichTL2 Moderator19 Apr 2025#23

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

31 likes 15mo
HO
h.oyelowoTL2Regular20 Apr 2025#24
s.leclerc, post #15: post #14 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why… Go to post

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

16 likes in reply to #15 15mo
EI
e.iyerTL2 Moderator20 Apr 2025#25
TL4_Halvorsen, post #13: Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. Go to post

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

6 likes in reply to #13 15mo
MH
ms_hollowayTL4Mass spectrometrist21 Apr 2025#26

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

1 like 15mo
SG
s.grimaldiTL2 Moderator21 Apr 2025#27

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes 15mo
DV
dr.villanuevaTL3Physician21 Apr 2025#28
ro.zielinski, post #21: On post #17 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer… Go to post

This follows post #25 rather than contradicting it.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

22 likes in reply to #21 15mo
GB
g.bakkenTL2 Moderator22 Apr 2025#29
d.nwosu, post #6: post #5 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than… Go to post

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

0 likes in reply to #6 15mo
WT
week_threeTL122 Apr 2025#30