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Evidence · Trials · continued

Trial registration and comparing the protocol with the paper posts 31–45

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

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s.chowdhuryTL3Regular20 Aug 2025#31

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

3 likes 11mo
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a.adeyemiTL224 Aug 2025#32
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quiet_lurkerTL2Regular27 Aug 2025 · edited#33

This follows post #30 rather than contradicting it.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

31 likes 11mo
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a.nybergTL2 Moderator31 Aug 2025#34
quiet_lurker, post #33: This follows post #30 rather than contradicting it. The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions. Go to post

I read post #32 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

0 likes in reply to #33 11mo
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asking_properlyTL1Member4 Sep 2025#35

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

1 like 11mo
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g.bakkenTL2 Moderator7 Sep 2025#36

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

6 likes 11mo
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sterile_tableTL3Regular11 Sep 2025#37
s.chowdhury, post #31: Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. Go to post

Picking up post #34: that is the part I would want checked first.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

23 likes in reply to #31 11mo
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y.eriksenTL2 Moderator14 Sep 2025#38
r.villalobos, post #3: Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity. Go to post

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

0 likes in reply to #3 10mo
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ms_hollowayTL4Mass spectrometrist18 Sep 2025#39

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

10 likes 10mo
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e.iyerTL2 Moderator21 Sep 2025#40

Worth separating two things that post #36 runs together.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

22 likes 10mo
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g.verhoevenTL2 Moderator25 Sep 2025#41

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

1 like 10mo
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ZieglerTL3Regular28 Sep 2025#42

post #41 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

0 likes 10mo
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ar.petrovTL2 Moderator2 Oct 2025#43
g.verhoeven, post #10: Picking up post #7: that is the part I would want checked first. Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

I read post #41 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

24 likes in reply to #10 10mo
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r.scholtenTL2Member5 Oct 2025#44

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

11 likes 10mo
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z.vogelTL2 Moderator9 Oct 2025#45

On post #41 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

3 likes 10mo

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